Measuring classical tape decks

Hi All!

How can one measure a classic tape or cassette recorder using the QuantAsylum?
Due to tape irregularities one wants to this slowly with sufficient averaging. On an AudioPrecision e.g. a customized slow sweep preceded by a 997Hz pilot tone can be recorded and subsequently this can be played back having the measurement being triggered by the pilot tone.

I saw something about triggered sweeps, but that doesn’t seem to be suited for a tape deck.

Can the QuantAsylum do something similar to the Ap?

Regards,

Eric.

Hi @Solder

You can export a triggered sweep, and then record that onto tape and play it back as needed. See the link below. But this should let you get a freq response of the deck.

Hi Matt,

I read about the triggered sweep, but that is only suited to a digital to analog situation. A tape deck is all analog. So the sweep should come from the QA40x directly without messing with a sound-card or external DAC and be recorded directly onto the deck. And subsequently, the output of the deck should go directly to the QA40x to obtain the results such as frequency response, THD, SINAD and SNR.

I don’t fancy a chirp either or it should be really slow. But I don’t see much in terms of control over it. So, a list of frequencies that are averaged over like a second or so would seem better.

I had the opportunity to play with Ap, and it could do all that. But those are a bit expensive for a hobby… So, I am trying to establish if the QA40x would be any good. But I get the feeling it is too limited for serious audio play. But I was hoping I missed something.

Regards,

Eric.

@solder I have mentioned this before in this forum, but if you have an inexpensive A/D converter like the Behringer UCA 202 and the NAK-T100 software ($30 from the microsoft app store), you can do a lot of cassette deck measurements, particularly with 3head decks.

Hi @Solder,

but that is only suited to a digital to analog situation.

A triggered chirp is suited anytime you can’t put a device into some sort of passthrough mode, where it takes a stimulus in and emits a stimulus out. So, most consumer tape decks are really like a DAC in that regard.

Now, if you have deck with record and playback heads, you can inject the normal chirp directly into the record side, and after a short delay (10’s of mS depending on tape speed) you’ll see it come out the playback side, and that can go into the QA403. And the normal freq response will just work. No triggering needed. And that works because the device is functioning a pass-through mode. Now, this will give you a composite of the record and playback heads, and if you record a triggered chirp you’ll get the same–a composite.

But you can always account for that using professionally recorded test tones to help you figure out the playback response, and then compensate for that using a custom weighting file.

If you can’t access the record/playback heads of your deck separately, then you’ll need to record a triggered chirp onto tape. You should be able to build the triggered chirp via Export->Export Chirp. That will give you a wave file. And then you could import that wave file and audition it using the QA403 (right click on RUN and pick Audition) and then capture that on your tape. And then, rewind the tape, switch to Triggered Acquisition (right click on RUN and then play the recorded chirp)

I don’t fancy a chirp either or it should be really slow. But I don’t see much in terms of control over it.

When deciding to export a triggered chip (or in normal chirp mode), you control the chirp duration with by selecting your FFT size. Roughly the chirp size is about the size of your FFT divided by your sample rate. So, a 256K FFT size at 48k will yield a 5.3 second chirp. In practice it’s a bit less than that due to guard bands. But a 1M FFT will net you probably 10-15 seconds of chirp. But in reality, the magic of a chirp is that when the SNR is good, the longer chirp doesn’t buy you much.

Here’s a plot of the QA403 in loopback, using right channel as reference, showing the response for a 32K (< 1 second) and 256k (8X longer). Note the response is identical from 10 to 22 kHz. Also note the Y axis is very zoomed in. The matching is better than 0.01 dB. So, don’t fear a short chirp! There’s a reason they are used all over the place in manufacturing.

Hi @Matt,

That is very informative and helpful, thank you!

Bottom line is, the AS403 is suited to (one of) the things I would like to do with it. I wanted to make sure before buying one!

I have no experience with chirps. When playing with the Ap I sweeped using discrete tones and averaging for 1 sec to dampen the effects of drop-outs. But I guess when using a slow-chirp a drop-out would only give a short dip in the graph, which is fine.

Hi @Scott,

I suppose the hardware side is the lesser problem here. One could use a decent sound card or USB audio interface to record and retrieve test tones using e.g. Audacity. And off course the classical way using a generator and AC milivolt meter jotting the levels down in Excel and generate a graph from there… Tedious work though.

The crux is decent measurement software. And decent instrument level ADC/DAC hardware is almost a welcome bonus :wink:. If you are aware of hardware in-depended measuring software, I would be very interested to give it a try!!

Regards,

Eric.

@Solder Here is a link to the software and their video shows how easy it is to use and I guess an ordinary sound card is all you need. I would check it out:

Hi @VAR,

Oh wow, there are some cool looking software tools there!

Certainly a good place to start to revive the audio hobby again. I’m sure it will wet the apatite for better measurement HW like the QA403…

Does this tool work on the QA403 by any chance?

Now I come to think about it, the QA403 product sheet says it is driver-less. But does that mean the QA403 is seen by Windows as a hot audio card or does it mean the QA403 software tooling contains the driver to handle it and Windows only sees an unknown device???

Thanks a lot, you made my day!

Regards,

Eric.

@Solder You have to purchase it from the Microsoft store is the only bad thing. Never used it with a two head deck for some of the tests, but with a 3 head deck it is great. There are several videos on youtube, including my own channel where I used it on a Dragon (about 1/2way through the video)- Vintage Audio Review #105 if you get bored.

Hi VAR,

Interesting video. I guess I need to watch episode 91 too (end probably some more ;-).

I am a bit pressed for time right now, so I save it for later.

Thanks again for the tips!

.

Yeah, I forgot about 91 as that deck died and I no longer have it. This week’s (upcoming) video is a Nakamichi CR5A deck and I show the software being used to measure it, but I did a better job in 91.