Issues with Calibration compared with My Audio Precision

Hey All,

I doing my darnedest to try and use the 403 for bench/travel work. Ive got a DAKING MKII console module on my bench and trying to do a basic setup. Level ,THD Etc. So to make sure the 403 looked good I simply did a loopback test with the XLR cables (I’m running in balanced mode) Please fee Fig 1.0.
Now please have a look at the measurement through the Daking MKII module. Fig 2.0.
Now please look at Fig 3.0. This shows the AP screen showing THD and level. Please note the differences. BTW I have 2 different Audio Precisions and they both showed the same (Well within fractions.. Less than .00X difference THD and level was exact between the 2 models).

So not sure how to proceed here. First the level difference is enough to really goof up the VU meter calibration. The THD isn’t that huge of a deal, but Not sure I can trust the 403 THD measurements as that’s quite a bit off for the Daking MKII. Thanks for your suggestions..
Cheers

Skip..

Fig 1.0

Fig 2.0

Fig 3.0

Hi. I premise that mine is just a hypothesis and therefore may have nothing to do with it. Are you sure that the measurement band of the QA403 and the AP are the same? I say this because in screenshot Fig.3 I see an “Average < 10Hz - 80KHz.” Obviously those numbers may have nothing to do with this THD measurement bandwidth information.

Yes 1 did make sure the frequency range was the same..
i also tried changing both to 10-22k.
Same basic difference…
Thanks a lot.. this is a weird one.. I also dbl check loopback on the ap.. out +4 = in + 4. So all good there..
Cheers
Skip…

The QA403 in differential mode has an output resistance of 200 Ohms (100 Ohms in SE mode). I do not know how much is the value of the input resistance of the Daking. If this resistance is relatively low, it could explain the level difference when Daking is connected to QA403. Of course, this is just my guess, but it might be worth doing some calculations to see if this is the reason for the dBU difference. I haven’t done the exact calculations, but I believe that an input resistance of the Daking of about 13 KOhm (of course, I don’t know if this is it), combined with the output resistance of the QA403 of 200 Ohm, may explain the difference.

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Hi @skipburrows, for Fig 2 are you running AP->MKII->QA403? Or are you running QA403->MKII->QA403?

If you are AP->MKII->QA403, then this IS a mystery.

If you are QA403->MKII->QA403 then the question would be what does the time domain look like?. Just press the space bar to start making measurements, and while it’s showing you the errant result, press the TIME button (in the DISPLAY control group) and share that plot.

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Absolutely. I’ve just checked my QA403 on dBu scale in terms of absolute level into my old Leader THD meter/ACmVM and the QA403 is spot-on (100k input R).

He’s likely just getting resistive divider voltage loss.

Hey Matt..
The test in fig 2 was the 403-MKII-403. Should be the same level as the ap-MKII-ap. So not sure what you mean by showing the time display. The MKII doesn’t know the signal is coming from the 403 or the ap. My ap shows perfect levels and the 403 is off. The direct output from the MKII uses a differential output stage with the 1646 That corp in-genus balanced chip developed by Bill Whitlock from Jensen transformers. A very nice output stage that will drive to nearly +30 at less than 600 ohms. The input impedance is greater than 10kohms on the line input. So tomorrow I will be happy to provide a pic with the measurements in time domain but I’m not really understanding how what that will show…
Thanks and if you could clarify it would be helpful…
Cheers

So not sure what you mean by showing the time display.

The QA40x normally shows the frequency display:

When you are seeing a questionable result, it’s often helpful to look at the time domain. You can switch by pressing the TIME button shown below with a red arrow. And you can use the up/down buttons in the AXIS section (shown with a red box) to see the time domain plot

Please show time domain plot and we can see what the settling is looking like

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Here’s a discussion above that I’m following with interest as the 403 and software mature. I’ll be very interested to see what the resolution is i.e. the reason for the difference between the AP and the 403.

Hey Claudio…
I have a theory on what the discrepancy is, however, I’m helping my wife with her in-laws over the next couple days and won’t be able to get back to my bench until Monday or Tuesday. But in a nutshell, I believe that it has to do with loading down of the generator. Some inputs that have transformers even if it’s a 10 K input is causing the loading of the generator and we’re losing half a DB you’re so I’ll be able to prove this with a further test when I get in front of the 403 and the audio precision I will post pictures to confirm my thoughts. Any other ideas are always appreciated. Thanks.

Hi Skip. That’s basically what I was saying in my previous post :grinning_face_with_smiling_eyes:. The QA403 generator in differential mode has an output resistance of 200 ohms. If you connect your DUT to the QA403 generator and it (the DUT) has an input resistance of about 13 KOhm, you actually get a voltage divider that justifies the 0.13 dB loss that you are measuring when you connect the DUT (the Daking).(13K/13.2K=0.985=-0.13 dB).So there is no anomaly in hw QA403 or sw QA40X, only the hard Ohm’s Law! :smiley:

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Dead right Claudio, we both said it. Can’t overlook the source impedance and voltage dividers.

:smiley: Yes, that’s right

Hey all…
Thanks again for the discussion,
So what to do going forward? As I’m really trying to use the 403 for work especially in the field ( hate lugging my ap all over the planet) how would you approach using the generator as it’s obviously being loaded down by different inputs? This is my lingering issue as on my bench I have my ap so I know the true levels. But as I travel (which is a lot!) I’m always going to be guessing on how much the generator is loading down. I can’t just do math as I rarely have schematics. I’m really giving this system the old college try however I keep running into challenges and roadblocks…
Love all your suggestions please keep ‘em coming..
Cheers to all..
Skip.

Hi. If you know the input impedance of the DUT, you can calculate the insertion attenuation and then enter this value expressed in dB, in “dBV Option” in the “Output Gain (dB)” field. This is the simplest solution I can think of at the moment. Obviously then it all depends on the degree of accuracy you want to achieve. If an error of 0.13 dB is not acceptable, everything gets complicated. If, for example, you can use the SE output of the QA403, the reistenance becomes 100 ohms, and in the case of Daking the error committed would be -0.066dB

Hey Claudio…
It unfortunately gets a tad bit more complicated..
As I test many types of inputs. Ie transformer and differential inputs the loading makes a larger but not insurmountable difference. Please look at fig 1. This is the ap going to the Daking MKII transformer mic input from the console at -31 dbu. The impedance is between 1200-1400 ohms.The output is +4.57. Now when I simplify swap the testing to the 403 we can see + 3.83 dbu. Fig 2.0. When dealing with VU calibration this at the 0 mark will make quite a bit of difference. My client would certainly notice that difference in calibration. So not sure on how to try any approach this discrepancy.. if everything in the studio was done on the 403 perhaps it would be closer but numbers are numbers and a VU should be dead on.
Perhaps there’s another way? Thoughts would be fantastic..
Regards,
Skip
Fig 1


Fig 2.0

Hi Skip. Unfortunately, I have no other solutions for you at the moment. One observation: since the AP’s generator will also have an output resistance (there are no generators with exactly 0 Ohm output resistance) which will therefore produce a resulting attenuation, are you sure that the data you read on the AP is absolutely accurate or will it also be affected by some discrepancy? More importantly, what is the magnitude of this inaccuracy? The only way to realize this difference (case fig. 1) is to measure with a sufficiently accurate DVM the voltage at the input of the DUT and compare it with the voltage actually produced by the AP generator. I believe (of course, I could be wrong) given the precision you require, that you will be in for some surprises.
Regards

Hi Skip,

to sort out the output level issue , one suggestion might be to try using an small output audio transformer … (just for the level issue)

They are relatively small :wink:, and before you leave your office, you just would have to find / test one that doesn’t adversely load your circuit… so that you read / measure proper level with the QA403..?

Maybe also some other alternative would be to test also the influence input loading of the QA403, as in using a custom made input attenuation probes 10:1 for example, instead of the internal attenuator ?

Maybe it also changes your loading of dut with the QA403.
(That’s being just a wild guess I haven’t plugged any numbers here…)

In any case faced with your problem , I would caractérise exactly both input and output impedance of your QA 403, ie measure it like I did in my video on creating custom probes for the old QA400…. and certainly not take any values for granted….about input and output impedance of the QA403 or even the AP…

If you do both units you will be abble to clearly now where things are at !
and probably find a simple solution that fits your need , I believe :blush:.

Cheerios

Eric

It’s a little bit of extra work, but could afford you some extra knowledge on your gear too :wink:!

What if you split Left output and connect it to Right input and use Right channel to measure what the actual output level is and then use that to tweak generator output?

Hi @skipburrows, you have two issues going on:

The first issue is loading as @Claudio and @restorer-john have pointed out. Below is a table that shows the ratio of DUT input Z to Generator Output Z. And that gives you a correction factor you can enter. For example, in balanced mode, the QA403 output Z is 200 ohms. If your DUT is 2k, then that’s a 10X ratio (2k/200), and you can compute or read from the chart that’s -0.827 dB. So, you can enter into the QA403 software the Output Gain of -0.827, and that will INCREASE the output gain of the analyzer by 0.827 dB to compensate for the divider losses. If you are also using balance mode output gain of 6.02 dB, then just add them and enter the sum of 6.02 - 0.827 = 5.193 dB.

The second issue is very likely a transient issue. I hate to say it again, but you need to be provide the TIME DOMAIN plot. When you pasted your Fig 2.0, you just needed to push the TIME button and that would have given the info required to diagnose.

Measuring a Compressor

(See also HERE)

Below is the time domain of a guitar compressor output with the settings dialed in to exaggerate the visuals. You can clearly see the attack phase lasting almost 200 mS. Note the short 8k FFT, which is also contributing to the issue.

If we go to Settings and set Show Truncated Burst in Time Domain, the time domain plot will change to show us just the portion of the waveform that is being used for the FFT

And here’s the resulting plot. Note the burst upon which the FFT analysis is occurring isn’t uniform. That is a problem, because for an FFT to really make sense, you want the amplitude of the waveform to be constant. Note, too, that the RMS is reported at -26.26 dBV.

So, how do we fix this? Go back to this plot and notice that while the attack is nearly 200 mS in duration, we never really see the waveform hit its steady state. It looks like it just shy of 200 mS. But we might guess that it’ll be 400 mS to hit steady state.

So, knowing that, we can adjust the latency compensation so be more than 400 mS. What this is telling the system is “The first 400 mS of the burst will be chaotic. So, ignore it”

Now, with Show Truncated Burst off we see the full burst. And very clearly we can see that indeed we’re hitting steady state probably around 300 mS. And so our assumption of 400mS was good.

Next, let’s go back to show the truncated burst and then zoom in on that. And look at that! Our amplitude is rock solid throughout the burst!

And note, too, that the RMS has changed from -26.26 and dropped to -26.61 dBV. This is because in the first plot above (not constant envelope) we saw the attack artificially increasing the energy. But you could also have an attack artificially decreasing the energy. But the point is this: If you don’t have a constant envelope, you can readily see half a dB of measurement error either way.

So, when looking at dynamic signals, you need to spend a bit of time in the time domain to make sure you are feeding the FFT with data that makes sense. If you aren’t, measurement errors can creep in. You have the tools to to readily tailor the measurements to account for very dynamic signals. A compressor is very easy to measure by looking at the time domain and adjusting the latency comp accordingly. And once that is correctly set, you can move back to the frequency domain confident with the result you are seeing.